Item 137. Minutes for the October 3, 2002 Board of Directors Meeting Anne Perry (mooncat) Tue, Oct 15, 2002 (12:23). 76 lines, 44 responses. (I sincerely apologize for the length of time it has taken me to post these) Attending: Flem*, Mary*, Bhelliom, Mooncat*, Sun/Ashke, STeve*, Aruba*, Other* and MDW* (* indicates Board Member) 1. Meeting began at 7:32 pm 2 'Can't seem to come up with a reort' 3. As of 10-3 were were +$298 and down $548. This is the 6th month in a row that Grex has been down. Two other items- back-up tapes were purchased and we received $10 from Cafe Press. Tangent- CoLo- look into? There was discussion regarding looking into concrete details/information on the co-location possibility. It seemed that finding out real facts regarding the possibility (location, access times, price, etc.) were better than vagueries. This led to beginning a discussion of Agenda ITem 5- talk about Centrex, question of who has a copy of the contract- STeve says that he has a copy somewhere. It is believed that the contract is for seven years, through October (or possibly July) of this year. We will need to review our options regarding renewing the contract or changing it. Back to Agenda ITem 3- we have 82 members Back to Agenda Item 5- How many phone lines can we drop at this time to maintain the Centrex contract? Safely, 1 line. 4. Moving on to Agenda ITem 4, there is still a question of what to do with the remaining items from the last 'Grex Store'. Suggestions: Sell them (t-shirts) as pillows (sew arms, neck and bottom shut and stuff them), put them up for bid in the auction, write off on Financial Report as a loss? The general consensus, basically, is that the stock is worth just about nothing, this was discussed at some length. The board declared the Grex Store obsolete and entrusts Bhelliom with the stock and grants her leeway in pricing so we can get rid of it. 5. Cut phone lines? Continuing conversation on how many phone lines we can cut. Motion: We drop one public phone line, assuming this will not negatively affect our Centrex Contract. Proposed by Aruba, seconded by STeve. Vote- 7 in favor, 0 against, 0 abstaining 6. Publicity- nothing 7. Technical- things mostly uneventful, some problems- abuse from users- some automated ISP trying to connect over and over again to a locked account. M-Net had an abusive user that got into their send-mail and forged mass mailings to Grex. Aside- bhelliom requests access to the Grex Store e-mail alias, Marcus will se that up. - Scott performed a back-up. Re: Nezt Grex- Remmers and SRW have been working on one of the new potential machines. 8. Next Meeting: Wednesday November 13th, 7:30 pm 9. New Business- Board member behind on his dues (taken care of at this point in time). STeve- begins discussion of the 'Grex doldrums' and queries as to what we can do about it. Can we do a combination of online and in person rational meetings to discuss what people want from grex, what problems they have, etc. Discussion about putting together some sort of survey to initiate the meetings.STeve said that he would enter an item on this topic to get the ball rolling. Additional discussion on whether or not Grex should remove or restrict shell access. If restricted- who decides who gets access and how is that permission given. No conclusion reached at this time on this matter. 10: Meeting ended at 8:43 pm 44 responses total. ---------- (137) #1 Dan Cross (cross) Tue, Oct 15, 2002 (12:32). 1 line. What are the grex doldrums, btw? ---------- (137) #2 The Accidental Purist (other) Tue, Oct 15, 2002 (14:09). 13 lines. Sort of an intangible sense that Grex is lacking in appeal and needs nwe ways to generate interest. As an aside, I don't know how valuable it is for Grex to put a lot of effort into trying to stay relevant beyond maintaining a certain limit to our distance behind the curve of technological advance. As an organization, we really are not much more than the people of whom we consist. The technology is merely the medium, but is relevant because it is the medium which draws us together in this particular way. Beyond the contributions of the individual members, and those other things we as a group decide to do, there doesn't seem to be much to be done, practically speaking. ---------- (137) #3 S M (mynxcat) Tue, Oct 15, 2002 (15:27). 2 lines. What wa it about removing or restricting shell access? I didn't uncerstand that. ---------- (137) #4 David Brodbeck (gull) Tue, Oct 15, 2002 (16:32). 4 lines. I can say with certainty that Grex would be less valuable to me if I no longer had shell access. I don't want to say that I'd stop being a member if it were taken away (that sounds too much like a threat) but I would be less inclined to renew. ---------- (137) #5 Dan Cross (cross) Tue, Oct 15, 2002 (17:03). 17 lines. I too think it would be a bad idea for grex to stop offering shell access; the technical issues that surround that access are the main reason I use it. If it wasn't available grex would cease being interesting to me and I'd probably disappear (which might be incentive for some to actively pursue removing shell access :-). Regarding the grex doldrums thing; I've said before, and continue to believe, that there is a very high barrier to entry around here, mostly in the attitudes of some of the long time users. A lot of bashing of other systems for being less than friendly happens, but really, that same criticism could be applied to grex. There are also some technical issues that prevent grex from being more active; some of those are being sorted out by looking into new hardware. However, a big one is that grex doesn't really interoperate with anything else. The conferencing and chat systems are pretty custom, and can only be used locally, and the new authentication system that's being proposed for the `future grex' won't interoperate with `standard' versions of that system. ---------- (137) #6 S. Lynne Fremont (slynne) Tue, Oct 15, 2002 (17:35). 3 lines. although I dont use it, I have to agree that getting rid of shell access seems like a bad idea. isnt one of the really nice things about grex is that it offers free shell access? ---------- (137) #7 Todd Plesco (tod) Tue, Oct 15, 2002 (17:36). 1 line. What are "vagueries"? ---------- (137) #8 STeve Andre' (steve) Tue, Oct 15, 2002 (18:20). 17 lines. I am working on an item explainging my thughts on the 'doldrums', and some ideas for how we can deal with it. Without going into huge detail here at the moment (I'm at work), I don't want Grex to not offer shell access, but I do begin to wonder if we need to make it non-automatic. Grex staff time is really geting soaked up in dealing with things like eggdroppings and all the stupid little things that vandals do, and I wonder if we might be able to cut that down some by making the offering of shell access something that isn't automatic. Please read that I DO NOT want to stop giving it out--thats one of the things that makes Grex what it is. But at the same time it *is* a huge drain on Grex staff time, dealing with pesky idiots. I'm not sure that an alternative can be worked out, and given the choice between no shell access at all and our imperfect system, I'll take the imperfect system. Anyway, I have to get back to dealing with a sick laptop. I hope to enter all my thoughts this weekend. ---------- (137) #9 The Accidental Purist (other) Tue, Oct 15, 2002 (19:51). 16 lines. It will be a challenge to determine whether automatic shell access costs more staff time than staff-approved shell access. The only way may be to try it. However, I think we should avoid making up additional rules to accompany the process. Shell access should be given to any person who asks, unless there is a very high level of certainty that the access will be abused (I would leave it up to individual staff to make that determination). Shell access, once permitted, should only be depermitted for the same things that we now deny it, and under the same circumstances. Doing it this way will isolate the deterrent effect of having to have a real, actual person approve the shell access. ---------- (137) #10 Jan Wolter (janc) Tue, Oct 15, 2002 (23:39). 1 line. Yuck. ---------- (137) #11 The Accidental Purist (other) Tue, Oct 15, 2002 (23:44). 2 lines. Well, that's my general sentiment on the subject, but IF we do it, that's how I think we should do it. ---------- (137) #12 Dan Cross (cross) Wed, Oct 16, 2002 (12:53). 10 lines. It actually doesn't sound like a bad idea. In fact, I would make it automatic. By default, dump users into a menu based shell, but provide an option to switch to ``normal'' shell access. However, don't do it automatically; instead, collect the requests and do it in batch at 3am or something. The shell menu system doesn't have to be bullet-proof; it can be written as a script. The idea here is not to provide a water tight container for new users, but just to raise the bar for script kiddies who only want to try and compile eggdrop. I'm guessing that typically, if these guys can't get instant gratification, they split and never come back. ---------- (137) #13 John H. Remmers (remmers) Wed, Oct 16, 2002 (17:44). 1 line. Agree with #10. ---------- (137) #14 The Accidental Purist (other) Wed, Oct 16, 2002 (22:03). 2 lines. Re #10, #13: So the status quo is just fine? The idea here was to examine ways to improve it... ---------- (137) #15 Paul Pickelmann (prp0) Fri, Oct 18, 2002 (15:21). 16 lines. The stuff on the website about eggdrop may be encouraging some people. There is enough there for Google and friends to find it, but the details are buried in a bit of a rant. I would suggest putting a "Running EggDrop on Grex" link on the main webpage. It would link to something like: Running EggDrop on Grex Y O U C A N N O T D O I T Click here for the technical reasons it will NOT work. Click here for policy details. It might also help to have to get staff permission for inbounds FTP instead of a shell account. ---------- (137) #16 Ken Josenhans (krj) Fri, Oct 18, 2002 (15:36). 11 lines. I wrote most of a reponse and then realized that I was just writing out at greater length what prp wrote above: Would it be more acceptable if there was some sort of permission process for using inbound FTP, as opposed to getting permission to use the shell account? This might really whack down on the number of people bringing in vandal tools and large software packages, especially if there is also a throttle on maximum e-mail size. This might even be a temporary measure to buy staff some time to work on the FTP file-size throttle which I've heard STeve propose. ---------- (137) #17 David Brodbeck (gull) Fri, Oct 18, 2002 (20:25). 2 lines. There are plenty of ways to move a file into a shell account that don't require FTP. ---------- (137) #18 Marcus Watts (mdw) Fri, Oct 18, 2002 (21:22). 1 line. Lynx is real popular for doing just that. ---------- (137) #19 Russ Cage (russ) Fri, Oct 18, 2002 (21:28). 3 lines. Better yet: "Why EggDrop Will Not Run On Grex". Put the negative into the first reference; that way it'll be displayed as part of the search-engine results. ---------- (137) #20 Paul Pickelmann (prp0) Sat, Oct 19, 2002 (12:38). 5 lines. Good point. The Google search I just did is not very encouraging to egghead wanabes, but the one I did yesterday is. If only I could remember what it was. ---------- (137) #21 Richard J. Wallner (richard) Sun, Oct 20, 2002 (23:58). 16 lines. I've already made clear what IMO is causing the Grex Doldrums. Which is the poor overrall state of grex's conferences, and the inability or unwillingness of board or staff to really address the issue. There seems to be a preference that if there had to be a choice between grex being a museum and being a living, breathing, ACTIVE conferencing environment, that the former is better. new users come to grex and if they look beyond agora, they see numbers of confs that are basically dead carcasses with the occasional user posting once every year like a buzzard nibbling at whats left of the body. Sooner or later it must be realized that seeing all those dead confs drives users away, gives the impression that grex is not vital. Grex needs to clean up its conferencing environment, tighten things up, and present a more organized area where people sense activity and feel welcome. And don't feel like they have entered a ghost town. Which is what Grex appears to be to some users ---------- (137) #22 David Brodbeck (gull) Mon, Oct 21, 2002 (09:36). 3 lines. I don't see how anyone could read Agora and come to the conclusion that Grex isn't vital. It was a while before I even realized there were conferences other than Agora, when I came here. ---------- (137) #23 Joe (gelinas) Mon, Oct 21, 2002 (13:06). 3 lines. Richard, what evidence for do you have for you perception of people's feelings? Obviously, *you* have no use for conferences that aren't very active. Why do you think that is what 'driving people away'? ---------- (137) #24 The Accidental Purist (other) Mon, Oct 21, 2002 (13:19). 2 lines. Richard lives in his own little world, gull. But it's okay. They know him there. ---------- (137) #25 Richard J. Wallner (richard) Mon, Oct 21, 2002 (14:59). 10 lines. #23...people visit confs other than agora, and with a few exceptions, see confs where noone has been posting in a long time. So they think, whats the point? I just don't think they are encouraged to post when they get the impression few people are reading those confs. And if grex is in doldrums, if users are coming here and not staying, what other reason could there be? grex is stable, reasonably fast, easy to use... There is just nothing wrong with improving the overrall conference presentation. It can't hurt. .\ ---------- (137) #26 Glenda F. Andre' (glenda) Mon, Oct 21, 2002 (15:42). 19 lines. Grex has always had more people loggin in once or twice and never again than it has had people who stay for a while. There have always been a few very active confs, a few moderately active confs, and a lot of relatively inactive ones. That's the way it works. M-Net was the same when I was active there. MTS Confer (where it all started and much bigger than both Grex and M-Net) was the same. It is a fact of life. I very much doubt that changing the way that confs are run is going to change the number of people that stay around. The majority of people that login regularly today don't ever go into the confs. They are here for e-mail and party. Changing the confs won't cause them to suddenly start going into the confs, that is not what they came for and not what they want. The confs, as they are, work for the majority of those who do come here to use them. If we wanted the way they work to change we would have changed them. And the confs are the area of the members, not the board or the staff, other than they are members. It is up to the members to change things not the board or staff. Everyone that has brought this up in the past has been shot down. We like things the way they are. Why can't you accept that? ---------- (137) #27 Joe (gelinas) Mon, Oct 21, 2002 (18:15). 7 lines. Richard, you state, "people visit confs other than agora, and with a few exceptions, see confs where noone has been posting in a long time. So they think, whats the point?" That is an assertion, not evidence. My question is: What is the basis of your assertion? Have you seen such comments in party? In an e-mail message? In a response in agora, coop, or garage? ---------- (137) #28 Richard J. Wallner (richard) Mon, Oct 21, 2002 (20:13). 12 lines. yes its an assertion, I have no idea if it can be proved. But it is logical to believe that at least some percentage of new users do be come aware of the smaller, topical, confs, and presumably some of them visit. But indisputably, few of them post in those confs. If users go to a conf, see a conf, and don't post, you can come up with multiple reasons, but the most likely at least IMO, is they are put off by the inactivity. And as for conferencing issues being a member issue and not a board issue, aren't the cfadmins either staffers, or appointed by staff? if staff wants someone to be conference administrator, and wants to give them such access as they'd need for that job, is that subject to board approval? / ---------- (137) #29 C. S. McGee (cmcgee) Mon, Oct 21, 2002 (20:38). 14 lines. Richard, the cfadmin is a single person. The cfadmin has nothing to do with who runs a conference, or even what conferences are created. The position is a for a Unix hack (forgive me Walter). The conferenes are run by the users (notice: users, not members). For a humerous view of a "dead" conference springing back to life, re-read femme for the first part of this year. You are asserting something that other people here, with exactly the same data, don't see the way you do. You have no data, you have assumptions bsed on your own feelings. Please recognize that you alone are not going to overturn Grex. You alone are not going to make me assess the data differently just by repeating your asssertion over and over again. Your logic is not my logic. Your leaps of faith are not my leaps of faith. And, from the responses in this item, you don't represent a constituency here on Grex that has no other voice but you. ---------- (137) #30 Russ Cage (russ) Mon, Oct 21, 2002 (22:28). 2 lines. Hell, M-Net had the "log in once or twice and never come back" users long before there even was a Grex. Jerry Pournelle was one of them. ---------- (137) #31 John Ellis Perry Jr. (jep) Mon, Oct 21, 2002 (22:33). 2 lines. And we're all grateful, I'm sure, that he left his loginid free for someone else to use. ---------- (137) #32 Marcus Watts (mdw) Tue, Oct 22, 2002 (02:10). 12 lines. I believe we usually have 2-3 cfadms, depending on how you count them. Traditionally, cfadm on grex has been a non-political rubber-stamp position; the only "policy" they enforce is a rather genial one requiring someone show sufficient public interest in starting a conference. Richard is asking for a fairly drastic change in the way conferences are administered here. The kind of intensive managment he's asking for is that which most people reserve for use in spaces where bandwidth is limited - radio/TV for instance, or supermarket shelves. It's not clear to most people or at least me what harm a relatively "idle" conference can have. If anything it's been interesting to watch new poeple discover "history" - like it or not, we have more history online here on grex than most web sites have. ---------- (137) #33 Walter Cramer (i) Tue, Oct 22, 2002 (07:56). 4 lines. Re: #29: "Unix hack"? The way i recall the technical requirements to be a cfadm first being described to me is "you edit text files". That's a pretty good description. ---------- (137) #34 Dave Lovelace (davel) Tue, Oct 22, 2002 (08:25). 1 line. Heh. ---------- (137) #35 David Brodbeck (gull) Tue, Oct 22, 2002 (08:50). 15 lines. Re #25: But Agora gets so many posts that some people have trouble keeping up. Do you see the contradiction here? I don't see how someone could read Agora, then go read another conf and say, "Oh, I guess there's nobody using this system after all." It seems to me like you've sort of latched onto the idea of cleaning out old conferences, and now you're pitching it as a solution to every problem that comes up. Sorta like Bush and his tax cut. ;) Re #32: Exactly. I've seen newcomers bring dead conferences back to life. I've also seen newcomers show up and talk about how neat it was to find all that old stuff in a conference. ---------- (137) #36 C. S. McGee (cmcgee) Tue, Oct 22, 2002 (12:48). 1 line. I withdraw the Unix hack statement. ;-) ---------- (137) #37 TS Taylor (tsty) Thu, Oct 24, 2002 (03:51). 4 lines. a bit of pr to the *local* high schools would disturb the doldrums. it is worth considering and it's better than meet:students (expecially since that has been abandoned). ---------- (137) #38 C. S. McGee (cmcgee) Thu, Oct 24, 2002 (08:13). 11 lines. You know, I like that. In fact, if Valerie could help with the thinking, Grex could become an avenue for _girls_ to get involved. The schools would be most anxious to have girl geeks from Grex encouraging other girls to get into science and engineering. I volunteer to do face-to-face stuff. Valerie, if she is still involved in Women in Computing, would be a natural hook for the high school faculty. Maybe Glenda, etc? Guys would be good, but I think we have a better chance if we look like we are helping them solve one of their known problems (too few talented women going into math and science). Any other volunteers? I'll do the phoning around to the schools, if I can get some help from our more recent graduates. Senna? Who should I talk to? ---------- (137) #39 Glenda F. Andre' (glenda) Thu, Oct 24, 2002 (10:28). 3 lines. Staci (dewshine) goes to Community and has tried to set something up when it has been her turn to do a Forum presentation. Unfortunately the computer lab there leaves a lot to be desired. It does sound like a fun idea. ---------- (137) #40 Paul Pickelmann (prp0) Thu, Oct 24, 2002 (11:15). 1 line. Didn't Picospan start out at the Computer Lab at Community High? ---------- (137) #41 Glenda F. Andre' (glenda) Thu, Oct 24, 2002 (12:35). 1 line. Doubt it, Marcus didn't attend high school here. ---------- (137) #42 Marcus Watts (mdw) Thu, Oct 24, 2002 (16:05). 4 lines. PicoSpan started out as a project for m-net. Mike Myers had previously run an Atari 800 based bulletin board system, I had changed some stuff on the Atari to make it nicer, and he wanted something to run on a brand new Altos 68000 that he had just bought in 1983. ---------- (137) #43 Psycho Freak Goalie (ea) Fri, Oct 25, 2002 (23:55). 1 line. I can provide a contact email for someone at huron ... send me an email ---------- (137) #44 TS Taylor (tsty) Sun, Oct 27, 2002 (06:14). 1 line. the old fashioned flyer ought to work JustFine.