Item 70. December's BoD
Megan Heberlein (eeyore) Tue, Dec 11, 2001 (19:33).
40 lines, 73 responses.

 Sorry this is son long in going up, but I've been working 11-14 hours a day,
 and really haven't fealt like then spending time in front of a modem.  But
 here goes. :)
 
 Opening Bang: 7:34
 
 No Chair Report
 
 Treasurer  We have 99 members, 95 paid.  We've decided to stop fighting
 Ameriwreck on the collect call that we're being charged for, 'cause $7 just
 ain't worth it.
 
 Publicity: Syl's waiting for a price list from Jenn.
 
 Staff: Dan Cross donated a couple of Spark64 machines, one of which has 640
 meg of ram.  They are both working systems, and are currently living at Jan
 & Valerie's house.  The 640 meg may become the next Grex.  STeve is working
 on foisting off Sun3 stuff onto people before the end of the year.
 
 Law Stuff: Marcus hasn't had time to really look into it.
 
 CD's: Savings accounts seem to be a better bet at this time for us, as the
 cd's do not seem to give much money, and need some maintenance.  We felt that
 Mark had quite enough to do with out adding the hassle of cd rollovers to the
 job, when the savings accounts seem to give about the same or slightly more
 money.
 
 New Business:  Mary is putting an ad in the program for her orchestra to
 promotre Grex.  She's doing this of her own accord and money, to help out her
 orchestra.  STeve mentioned that our UPS should probably recieve a new battery
 sometime soon....there's been no problems, but we've had it a couple of years,
 and it was used when we got it.  STeve motioned that the board aouthorize
 spending up to $200 for batteries for our UPS.  Meg seconded, and voting was
 unanomous.
 
 Closing Bang: 8:05
 
 Board Attendees: Meg, Greg, Mark, STeve, Anne & Marcus (at the end)
 Non Board Attendees: Sylvia, Mary & John, Glenda & Staci, Joesph & Kids, and
 somebody who's name I didn't get.  (I"m sorry!!!!!)

73 responses total.

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(70) #1  plain language from truthful james (davel)
Tue, Dec 11, 2001 (21:54).   2 lines.
 Hmph.  It was me, FWIW.
 <dave goes off to sulk>
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(70) #2  E R Bassey (other)
Wed, Dec 12, 2001 (02:34).   1 line.
 Thanks Meg, for covering for my absence.
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(70) #3  Megan Heberlein (eeyore)
Wed, Dec 12, 2001 (12:53).   4 lines.
 I was pretty sure that your name was Dave, but I wasn't sure *which* Dave,
 and if my memory was off, then I'd have looked dummer.
 
 My sincerest apologies!  :)
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(70) #4  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Wed, Dec 12, 2001 (15:18).   7 lines.
 I am very curious as to which bank is paying more on a savings account than
 on a 5-year CD.  Bank of Ann Arbor has just raised its 5-year CD rate to 4.50%
 and passbook savings is paying 2%.  Last time I called around most banks in
 town (all but Bank of Ann Arbor and Flagstaff) were paying about 1% on
 savings.  Many months ago savings accounts were paying 4% but this has gone
 down steadily.  PAX was, not long ago, paying slightly over 1% on money market
 fund.
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(70) #5  Joe (gelinas)
Wed, Dec 12, 2001 (17:07).   2 lines.
 Sindi, we can't have our money tied up for five years.  We simply don't have
 enough of it.
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(70) #6  Anne Perry (mooncat)
Wed, Dec 12, 2001 (17:27).   2 lines.
 re #4- Sindi- what penalties does Bank of Ann Arbor have for early 
 withdrawals from CDs? And how quickly can you get access to the cash?
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(70) #7  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Wed, Dec 12, 2001 (18:51).   26 lines.
 As I explained (in the item on November finances) the penalty for early
 withdrawal of some portion of the money invested in a CD is 3 months interest.
 That means, for example, if you take out $1000 at the end of a year, from a
 5-year CD paying 4.75% (TCF's 5-year rate last I checked) you get a year's
 interested minus three months - about $36 total.  If you put it in a savings
 account at 2% interest you make $20.  I did not ask the procedure for
 withdrawing the money but I assume you simply go to the bank and ask for it
 (or maybe you can phone and have a check sent?).  Same as you would do for
 a savings account, most likely.  
 	If you keep $1000 in the bank for 5 years at 2% you make a little over
 $100 (due to compounding).  If you keep it in a 5-year CD for 5 years at 4.75%
 you make $237.50 (plus some for compounding).  You can invest $4000 and take
 out only as much as you need at any one time and pay the penalty only on that
 portion.  And the rates are such that you make more money after a year from
 a 5-year CD (even after the penalty) than from a 1-year CD (pays about 2.5%).
 
 Most people apparently are afraid to withdraw anything from a CD at any point
 before the end of the term because they think 'substantional penalty' is
 something larger than a quarter of a year's interest, otherwise I cannot
 understand why anyone would invest in a one-year CD paying half as much as
 a 5-year CD.  
 Added to which, the money is currently invested at TCF, which, last I checked
 was only paying about 1% on savings, not 2% (which Bank of Ann Arbor and
 probably Flagstaff pay) and seems to think it would be easier to keep money
 in only one bank instead of two.  And TCF was paying 4.75% last I checked and
 Bank of Ann Arbor slightly less, 4.50%.  
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(70) #8  Mark A. Conger (aruba)
Wed, Dec 12, 2001 (22:19).   3 lines.
 Sindi, I'm not comfortable with putting money in a 5-year CD knowing that we
 will likely take it out in less than 5 years.  I thought a savings account
 was your suggestion?
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(70) #9  David Brodbeck (gull)
Wed, Dec 12, 2001 (23:20).   8 lines.
 As soon as I saw #0 I knew Keesan would be turning this into the CD 
 Item.
 
 I agree that it's probably not worth the effort.  Interest rates are 
 ridiculously low right now, so the payoff just isn't there.  And I'm 
 not comfortable with the dishonesty of buying a 5-year CD while fully 
 expecting to cash it out early.  It'd also be a good way to get stuck 
 if they change their policies on early withdrawls.
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(70) #10  JP2 * GREX * AND YOU! (jp2)
Thu, Dec 13, 2001 (09:41).   5 lines.
 You're an asshole if you think dishonesty is a decent reason.  And they cannot
 change their policies on open CDs.
 
 The pure hassle is about the only decent reason here.  I mean, stick the money
 in a Paypal account if you want better interest and easy accessibility.
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(70) #11  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Thu, Dec 13, 2001 (13:39).   16 lines.
 When I suggested a savings account it was paying 4% and now it is paying 2%.
 It is not dishonest to put money in a 5-year CD with the intention of taking
 out part of it early since you are following the written rules (3 mo penalty
 for early withdrawal) and I strongly doubt that a bank can change the written
 policy on early withdrawal after you sign up for a CD.  Both parties sign a
 legal contract.  4.75% interest per year on a CD is not ridiculously low, it
 is a lot higher than 0% which grex's money is currently earning.  $4000
 invested at that rate for five years would earn about $1000.  If you took out
 $1000 at the end of a year to buy computer and paid the penalty on that but
 left the rest in for four more years you would earn about $36 on the $1000
 that was there for a year, and about $783 on the other $3000 for five years,
 or about $819, which could pay for the next grex computer.  This sounds like
 a lot less work to me (opening a CD, taking money out of it once, probably
 letting it roll over after 5 years) than running one grex auction. Admittedly
 the auction has more entertainment value but it takes up a lot of the
 treasurer's time.
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(70) #12  C. S. McGee (cmcgee)
Thu, Dec 13, 2001 (18:20).   1 line.
 Yep it's the Sindi CD Item
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(70) #13  Mark A. Conger (aruba)
Thu, Dec 13, 2001 (19:51).   7 lines.
 <sigh>
 
 Sindi, I feel like whatever we do, you're going to want to change it, if not
 immediately, then soon.  I'm just not up for that.  Maybe we can appoint
 someone else to be Grex's financial guru, but I'm not really interested. I
 just want to leave the money somewhere and forget about it, until we need
 it.
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(70) #14  Mary Remmers (mary)
Thu, Dec 13, 2001 (21:50).   7 lines.
 I think we're all starting to feel a little bullied here, Sindi.
 You've made your case and lots of just don't want to implement your
 plan, for various reasons we don't want to keep stating over and
 over and over, despite the fact you don't seem to mind doing so.
 
 So, carry on, but don't be surprised if you don't get a lot of
 encouragement.  At least not on this issue for a while.
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(70) #15  JP2 * GREX * AND YOU! (jp2)
Thu, Dec 13, 2001 (21:52).   2 lines.
 Bullied?  Fuck that.  Just tell her to shove an organically grown carrot up
 her twat and move on.
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(70) #16  tempestt (teapot)
Fri, Dec 14, 2001 (01:22).   1 line.
 http://biz.yahoo.com/fo/011113/1113topnews_1.html
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(70) #17  Carson (carson)
Fri, Dec 14, 2001 (06:29).   3 lines.
 Although I find the above link largely irrelevant to the topic at hand,
 I find it terribly fascinating that teapot does not appear in the wtmp
 file.
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(70) #18  JP2 * GREX * AND YOU! (jp2)
Fri, Dec 14, 2001 (09:22).   1 line.
 Backtalk.
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(70) #19  John H. Remmers (remmers)
Fri, Dec 14, 2001 (10:16).   3 lines.
 My perspective on this is that it's worth more money to Grex
 to keep the treasurer's job manageable than any fancy
 investment finagling would be.
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(70) #20  David Brodbeck (gull)
Fri, Dec 14, 2001 (11:23).   2 lines.
 Maybe keesan should run for treasurer, instead of trying to order the 
 treasurer we have around all the time.
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(70) #21  JP2 * GREX * AND YOU! (jp2)
Fri, Dec 14, 2001 (11:27).   1 line.
 Is that an electable position?
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(70) #22  John H. Remmers (remmers)
Fri, Dec 14, 2001 (11:30).   1 line.
 The treasurer has to be a board member, and is chosen by the board.
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(70) #23  JP2 * GREX * AND YOU! (jp2)
Fri, Dec 14, 2001 (11:46).   1 line.
 Oh, I missed that.  That's an interesting approach.
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(70) #24  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Fri, Dec 14, 2001 (15:23).   7 lines.
 Re 13.  Mark, if you want to invest the money in a 5-year CD at TCF, which
 I thought was what you would find easiest since you already have experience
 with this, I would promise not to mention it again for 5 years unless the CD
 rates went up at least 50% during that period (at which point it would be
 worth about $100/year to switch to a new CD).  Since these things
 automatically renew, presumably at the current rate, you could then forget
 about it except if money had to be withdrawn.
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(70) #25  Joe (gelinas)
Fri, Dec 14, 2001 (16:13).   2 lines.
 That "automatic renewal" was part of the problem:  the window was sufficiently
 narrow that a moment's inattention would lock up the money again.
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(70) #26  Joe (gelinas)
Fri, Dec 14, 2001 (16:15).   3 lines.
 By the way, CD interest rates are higher than other saving instruments because
 the money _is_ locked up:  the bank knows it will be available for long enough
 to be invested at better rates.  Liquidity is important, for all concerned.
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(70) #27  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Fri, Dec 14, 2001 (16:37).   8 lines.
 I had a 7-year CD at Great Lakes (which became TCF) and they sent me
 notification that the account would automatically renew.  I think the
 notification came 2 weeks before the term was up (may have been one week) and
 I had an additional week after it renewed to cancel the renewal.
 The worst that could happen if it automatically renewed when you did not want
 it to is you have to pay 3 mo interest to get it back out.  It is not a very
 strong 'lock'.  
 To cancel renewal I only had to fax (or mail) them a signed letter.
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(70) #28  STeve Andre' (steve)
Sun, Dec 16, 2001 (00:54).   6 lines.
    As I have said before, the first priority for Grex must be ease of use for
 the treasurer.  Given that we're getting 0% at the moment, 2% in a simple
 savings account is a great win for Grex.  
 
    Don't feel beat up Mark.  Ignore the negative comments and deposit the
 money in a savings account when you can.
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(70) #29  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Sun, Dec 16, 2001 (12:09).   11 lines.
 STeve, you could use the same logic as in 28 to argue, if grex had a 2%
 account, 'given that we're getting 2% at the moment, 4.75% ... is a great win
 for grex'.  In fact it would be even a stronger argument as the difference
 is larger.  I will call the bank Monday and ask how much trouble it actually
 is to remove money from  a CD and to cancel automatic renewal.
 (If $4000 were left in a 5-year CD for 5 years versus the savings account,
 the extra earned would be over $500, which would seem to justify any treasurer
 going to an extra hour or two work.  I wish someone would pay me $250/hour.)
 
 I read 28 as a 'negative comment' - "don't" and "ignore" sound pretty negative
 to me.  
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(70) #30  JP2 * GREX * AND YOU! (jp2)
Sun, Dec 16, 2001 (12:13).   8 lines.
 Fine, since you guys won't do it, I will.
 
 Keesan, shove an organically grown carrot up your twat and go the fuck away.
 Nobody here gives a shit because this is a piss poor idea.  You have spent
 as much time thinking this through as you have any of your other posts, i.e.,
 none.  Lay off it for a while and start thinking things through and you will
 coming off as the dumbest fucking person around here.  I mean, you are even
 more of a bitch than richard is.  Now go the fuck away.
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(70) #31  STeve Andre' (steve)
Sun, Dec 16, 2001 (15:27).   17 lines.
    No Sindi, you son't get it:  I don't care about the interest, compared to
 the possible extra work on our treasurer.
 
    Do you understand what I am saying?  I would *GLADLY* settle for Grex 
 getting 0% interest forever, as opposed to making the job of the treasurer
 harder.  Grex is not a commerical organization, and as such has different
 priorities and needs from something that tried to make money.  Given that
 we are an all volunteer effort, getting and keeping good volunteers is more
 important than anything else.
 
    If Grex gets 2% interest on its money, thats infinately more return than
 we've gotten before, and in the area of about half of what we might be able
 to get if we scrounged and looked for the best possible rates disregarding
 the effort.  Thats good enough for me--it strikes a balance between getting
 something for our money, and not adding more crap for our treasurer.
 
    I am really hoping we can drop this matter by say, 2003?
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(70) #32  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Sun, Dec 16, 2001 (17:35).   15 lines.
 I undersstand your concerns, STeve, and I appreciate your taking the time to
 explain them.  But I don't think there is a large difference in amount of time
 involved in investing in a savings account and a CD, and in fact it might
 actually be less work to invest in the CD.  Grex currently has all its money
 at TCF, which pays 4.75% for a CD and only about 1% for a savings account.
 The only two banks in town that I could find that pay more than this pay about
 2% and are Flagstar and Bank of Ann Arbor.  Opening a savings account at a
 new bank would require filling out paperwork and getting several people to
 sign, whereas opening a CD at TCF, where grex already even has a CD, is
 probably less actual work.  And it is probably easier to keep track of two
 accounts at one bank than at two banks.  And Mark already has practice opening
 a CD at TCF and can tell us how much time is involved in that.  He probably
 even has in writing the rules about how to withdraw and terminate a CD but
 I can phone and ask about those tomorrow.  It might not be any more difficult
 or time consuming than withdrawing from a savings account.
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(70) #33  Mark A. Conger (aruba)
Sun, Dec 16, 2001 (18:39).   30 lines.
 OK, so I looked up the rules on TCF CDs.  They don't say exactly what you
 have to do to withdraw money, but they do say this:
 
 "TCF has the right to require you to notify TCF in writing at least 7 days
 before you withdraw or transfer money from your Account.  (Federal
 regulations require this.)  If TCF decides to act on this right, the 7 day
 period starts the day you request the withdrawal or transfer." 
 
 Also, the penalty for early withdrawal is 3 months' interest if the term is
 1 year or less, and 6 months' interest if the term is 13 to 60 months.
 
 And: "TCF MAY MAKE CHANGES OR ADDITIONS TO YOUR ACCOUNT CONTRACT FROM TIME
 TO TIME."  (Caps in original.) "TCF will notify you of any changes to your
 Account Contract (such as changes to the minimum balance requirements) prior
 to the Maturity Date on your Certificate by sending you notice of the
 changes or additions within the time required by federal regulations, if
 federal regulations require notice to yu.  TCF will not change the interest
 rates payable on a Certificate, except as permitted for Step-up
 Certificates."
 
 I don't know if either of those weasel passages is anything that would
 actually be invoked.  But it is clear that buying a CD is a promise to
 leave the money alone for a while, and I just don't think Grex should
 make that promise.  
 
 I understand what you're saying, Sindi, that a 5-year CD pays more
 interest than a savings account.  And maybe for you and your money, that
 is the bottom line and nothing else matters.  I respect that point of
 view.  But you should recognize that the reason both savings accounts and
 CDs exist is that neither is right for everyone.
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(70) #34  C. S. McGee (cmcgee)
Sun, Dec 16, 2001 (21:09).   26 lines.
 Sindi<
 It is marvelous that your personal value system is well thought out,
 logical, and that you are an ardent spokesperson for it.  But your
 personal value system is simply that: personal.  
 
 Your mind-numbing attempts to impose your values on a community that
 has consistently, eloquently rejected them makes it appear that
 either you are hostile, and want to cause constant conflict, or you
 are starved for attention and want constant feedback from others
 whether it is positive or negative, or that you are semi-autistic and
 do not read social feedback very well.  
 
 Whatever the explanation, would you please not post your views on
 this subject?  We all understand well what you are saying.  No one
 else agrees with you.  We want Mark to stick with what has worked for
 him.  We don't want him to have to spend MORE time on his job
 justifying these decisions to you, and you alone.  
 
 I personally want to thank Mark for his kindness and patience in
 dealing with you.  It is well beyond what most volunteers are
 expected to put up with, when a single member continually hammers at
 the way they are doing their job.  
 
 
 
 
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(70) #35  STeve Andre' (steve)
Mon, Dec 17, 2001 (00:52).   1 line.
    Praise be #34.
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(70) #36  Glenda F. Andre' (glenda)
Mon, Dec 17, 2001 (07:32).   3 lines.
 And in all this remember that the board approved putting the money in a
 savings account, they did not approve a CD.  The treasurer cannot just
 up an change a board decision.
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(70) #37  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Mon, Dec 17, 2001 (11:38).   81 lines.
 From what Mark has just posted, and from more info I got in a phone call to
 TCF, I also am not in favor of investing in a CD there.  I finally got past
 their menu system to a person, who said you cannot take money out of a CD and
 leave part in, you have to withdraw the whole thing.  (This is why Mark was
 considering several $500 acccounts there).
 
 But not all banks have the same policies.  I called BoAA again and yes, it
 is definitely possible to put in $5000 and take out $1000 at any time.  The
 remaining money continues to earn the same rate, and the money withdrawn is
 penalized 3 months interest (no matter how long the term is - apparently TCF
 gave me misinformation last time I called).
 
 Current rates:  TCF savings .50% yield.  59-mo CD 4.50% yield (with no way
 to withdraw part of the money before term, and a larger penalty)
 BoAA savings 1.75% yield, CD 4.75% yield.  3 mo penalty for early withdrawal
 on that portion which is withdrawn.
 
 It does not seem worth the effort to invest in a savings account at TCF to
 get $25/year on $5000.  One at BoAA would pay about $87.50 on the same amount
 and is certainly an improvement over nothing.
 
 I also checked on what is involved in setting up savings versus CD, and in
 withdrawing money from them.
 
 Both would take the same amount of time to set up.
 To withdraw from savings, you go to the teller and spend possibly as much as
 5 minutes total if there is a line.  
 To withdraw from a CD, you go to the desk and spend possibly as much as 15
 minutes since there is more paperwork involved.
 In other words, if grex withdrew money from a CD once a year it would be an
 extra 10 minutes time, by the estimate of the person who answered the phone
 and works at the desk herself.
 
 Gelinas was concerned about how to prevent automatic rollover.
 My TCF account notified me a week or two that it would automatically roll
 over, and I had an additional week after it did so to terminate it.
 BoAA tells me that they send out a letter ONE MONTH in advance of the
 date of automatic rollover, and you can terminate the account with written
 authorization at any time during that month or during 10 calendar days after
 this.  (Sounds a lot better than the policy of grex's ex credit card company).
 If by some chance a treasurer were out of town or even too busy to send in
 written authorization for 40 days, the money could still be totally withdrawn
 at any time after that with a penalty of 3 months interest (currently about
 $12/thousand invested).
 
 I have not seen the written rules and don't know if BoAA reserves the right
 to change their written policy after you sign up for an account.
 
 Perhaps the board wants to reconsider its vote based on new information.
 To sum up, it would take possibly an extra 10 minutes of the treasurer's time
 per withdrawal to invest in a CD rather than a savings account at BoAA.
 I personally would not want to see grex invest in a CD with TCF considering
 they can change their rules at any time and you cannot withdraw part of it
 and there is a larger penalty for withdrawal.
 
 $4000 invested at TCF in savings would earn $20/year.
 The same amount at BoAA would earn $70/year.
 The same amount at BoAA in a 5-year CD would earn $190 but if you took out
 $1000 at the end of the year you would lose $12.  Total earned $178.
 
 It would be more work to open an account at BoAA, maybe an hour's time. (?)
 Savings or CD would take the same amount of time to set up.
 CD would take an extra 10 minutes per withdrawal.
 
 You could save 10 minutes per phone call at BoAA versus TCF.
 
 You would have a 40 day window to terminate a CD at BoAA and if you missed
 it, could still close the account by paying about $12/thousand penalty.
 
 That's the end of my input and all the facts I could find.  The board and the
 treasurer can decide what to do with the information, whether the extra
 $108/year from a CD is worth whatever extra effort it might take to deal with.
 
 If it helps, I can get a copy of the written info from BoAA confirming what
 I was told on the phone (3-mo penalty even on a 5-year account, etc.)
 
 I am not trying to make more work for the treasurer, I am simply trying to
 point out that it is such a negligible difference in time involved (10 min
 per withdrawal) that the choice should not be based on this factor.
 I am assuming that other people have based their opinions on the idea that
 a large difference in work is involved.  Please consider the above facts.
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(70) #38  C. S. McGee (cmcgee)
Mon, Dec 17, 2001 (12:49).   6 lines.
 I did not base my opinion on the idea that a large difference in work is
 involved.  Even if it was LESS work, I'd still want Mark to handle the job
 the way he wants.  
 
 Sindi, everyone here has considered these facts over and over.  You are out
 of touch with this  community.  Please drop this subject.
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(70) #39  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Mon, Dec 17, 2001 (13:23).   15 lines.
 The board did previously vote to let Mark decide how to invest (and he chose
 multiple CDs at the time but decided that route was too much work).  I don't
 think it is in the spirit of grex to tell people not to discuss a subject.
 If nothing else, I am sure I am not the only one to get an education about
 how CDs work.  (I never expected banks to differ so much.)
 
 To get the facts straight, TCF did send out a Certificate Maturity Notice 1
 month before maturity date.  And you had 7 days (not 10 days as at BoAA) after
 this date to 'make a change in your certificate'.
 
 Unless 'people' knew more than I did before today, the 'facts' were not
 readily available to consider.  I did not know that the two banks differed
 so much in their policies.  As Mark points out, TCF has larger penalties for
 longer-term accounts, and BoAA tells me it is 3-mo interest penalty for any
 term account.  And BoAA lets you make partial withdrawals while TCF does not.
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(70) #40  JP2 * GREX * AND YOU! (jp2)
Mon, Dec 17, 2001 (13:25).   1 line.
 If you are so damn concerned about it, bring it to a member vote.
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(70) #41  Glenda F. Andre' (glenda)
Mon, Dec 17, 2001 (13:29).   8 lines.
 The fact still remains that the Board made a decision.  Just because you do
 not like that decision is not enough to have them make another decision on
 the same subject.  This subject has wasted way too much of Mark's and the
 board's time.  A decision was made and should stand.  At least for now.
 
 I could not support a board that would make a decision one month, change the
 next, change it back a month after that.
 
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(70) #42  Phil Thomas (pthomas)
Mon, Dec 17, 2001 (15:43).   1 line.
 Revisionist!
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(70) #43  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Mon, Dec 17, 2001 (15:45).   9 lines.
 But the board did keep changing its decision.  At one point the vote (I don't
 recall if it was a member vote or a board vote) was to invest in PAX money
 market fund, then the board voted to let Mark decide how to invest, then the
 board voted to invest in a savings account.  Is Mark still authorized by the
 previous decision to decide how to invest?  I have been going on the
 assumption that it is his decision and that other people can make suggestions
 and contribute information on which he can base that decision.  Mark has also
 posted some useful information on CDs at TCF that they don't seem to give out
 over the phone (not that what they give is is necessarily correct).
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(70) #44  Mary Remmers (mary)
Mon, Dec 17, 2001 (19:20).   1 line.
 I think Colin Powell should put Sindi on Bin Laden's case.
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(70) #45  David Brodbeck (gull)
Mon, Dec 17, 2001 (20:24).   9 lines.
 I think it's a good thing I'm not treasurer, because by now I'd be 
 about ready to quit instead of dealing with this constant nagging.
 
 I think that everyone understands keesan's point by now.  I see no 
 reason why this has to be rehashed ad nauseum.  Keesan, it's clear you 
 aren't making any progress this way.  If you feel so strongly about 
 this, you'll have to consider other methods such as putting it to a 
 member vote or running for a board seat on a "put the money in a CD" 
 platform.
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(70) #46  Glenda F. Andre' (glenda)
Tue, Dec 18, 2001 (07:36).   2 lines.
 I was at the last meeting, Mark asked for the guidance of the Board.  The
 Board voted to put it in a saving acount.
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(70) #47  John Ellis Perry Jr. (jep)
Tue, Dec 18, 2001 (17:31).   8 lines.
 Sindi is giving advice to the treasurer.  There's nothing wrong in 
 that, even if some don't like the advice.
 
 I'll give some unsought-for advice of my own to the treasurer, though, 
 at the risk of offending more than one person I like.  Mark, you don't 
 have to respond.  You can even forget this item if you wish.  There is 
 nothing wrong with doing so.  You can "nice" yourself to despair if you 
 don't set some limits and stick with them.
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(70) #48  Phil Thomas (pthomas)
Tue, Dec 18, 2001 (18:16).   2 lines.
 No! We must combat the counterrevolutionary forces of revisionism,
 wherever they may lie!
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(70) #49  E R Bassey (other)
Wed, Dec 19, 2001 (00:28).   3 lines.
 re#47:  hear, hear.  Colleen, no point in telling someone not to post 
 their opinion on something because you're tired of reading, but if it 
 makes you feel better, go right ahead.  I do.
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(70) #50  Dave Lovelace (davel)
Wed, Dec 19, 2001 (09:58).   1 line.
 forget
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(70) #51  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Wed, Dec 19, 2001 (14:32).   114 lines.
 Fine, anyone who is not interested in the subject does not have to read the
 following or comment on it.  I would be interested in comments from people
 who are interested in the general philosophy of how banks work and how to
 choose the right one for your specific need.
 
 My somewhat simplified ideas on how banks and savings accounts 
 work, based on approximations of numbers from Bank of Ann Arbor 
 (possibly also out of date).
 Banks earn money by performing services for their customers:
 1.  They keep the money safe from robbers, and insured.
 2.  They help customers move it around (electronic transfer, 
 checks) without the need for cash.
 3.  They act as intermediates between people who have money to 
 lend and people who want to borrow it.
 
 Banks make money by accepting people's savings and lending it 
 out, let's say at 7% for mortgages.  They pass along some of 
 what they make to the customer, after subtracting their costs.
 
 Their costs include building construction and maintenance, heat 
 and light, computers and ATM machines, and human labor.  If they 
 can keep down the cost of labor, they can pass along more of the 
 mortgage interest to the people with the savings.
 
 Human labor is involved in opening and closing accounts, in 
 processing checks, and in the work done by tellers (taking and 
 given out money).  ATM and phone and online transfers are much 
 cheaper for the bank than transactions at the teller, but they
 take time to set up in the first place.   It costs about the 
 same to move large amounts of money around as small ones, so 
 labor costs are not proportional to the amounts but to the 
 number of transactions, therefore the bank would rather you 
 invested a lot instead of a little money.
 
 Since customers have different needs, banks compete for them by 
 offering different types of accounts - checking, savings, and 
 CDs - which pay more if there is less labor involved.
 
 Checking accounts are the most work for the bank, as people put 
 money in and out more often, and often in small amounts, and 
 they also involve time in setting up ATM/debit cards, and phone 
 and online transfer. Because of all the human labor, banks 
 cannot afford to pay any interest on these, in fact they even 
 require that you keep $700 in the account or they will charge a 
 fee for keeping the account open.  But in exchange for letting 
 them use your money for free, you can visit the teller as often 
 as you like, and write as many checks a month as you like
 (and eat all the tootsie pops you want while there).
 
 There is a hybrid called money market savings for people who 
 don't move money around as much.  You can write only three 
 checks a month, which saves the bank on labor so they can afford
 to pay 1/2% interest and they only make you keep $100 in there.
 
 Statement savings accounts pay 2% interest because they take up 
 less of the bank's time.  You can withdraw money from the 
 teller 3 times a month with no fee, and if you go over that they
 charge you a fee ($3/month?) to cover their extra costs.  $100 
 minimum to attract small investors.  You can withdraw as many 
 times as you want by ATM or phone or online transfer as computer
 labor is cheap.  You get an ATM card but not a free debit card 
 (it costs the bank when you use a debit card).
 
 CDs take up even less of the bank's time, because you can only 
 withdraw money at no cost once every 6 months (or 5 years).  If 
 you want to withdraw more often than that, there is a fee per 
 withdrawal (3 months interest, or about $3 to withdraw $250) 
 which pays for the extra 10 minutes of an employee's time.  The 
 bank also saves time by not setting up ATM privileges or phone 
 or online transfer, and by opening one account with $1000 
 minimum instead of lots of smaller ones.  It can therefore 
 afford to pass along 5% of the 7% that this money is earning 
 from a mortgage.
 
 A CD is therefore only a particular type of savings account 
 with a higher minimum and a fee per withdrawal.  It is designed 
 for customers who don't need to access a large chunk of their  
 money often and can plan ahead instead of using checks or an 
 ATM.  They can use a combination of high-interest CD to keep 
 most of their savings in, and a no-interest checking account for 
 short-term transactions of smaller amounts.  
 
 Different banks have structured interest rates differently.  TCF 
 seems to offer checking accounts as sort of a loss leader (with 
 only $250 minimum) but pays less on statement savings.  BoAA has
 a higher ($700) minimum for checking accounts and charges 
 nonprofits fees for checking, but pays higher rates on savings.  
 BoAA has $1000 minimum on CDs but it is cheaper to do early 
 withdrawals (of all or part of the money).  TCF has $500 minimum
 on CDs to attract smaller investors, but the accounts are less 
 liquid due to higher withdrawal fees ('penalties') and it does 
 not permit partial withdrawals.  It therefore makes sense to 
 evaluate your needs and choose the account which meets them and 
 yet pays the most.
 
 In my opinion, TCF is a better bank for checking and BoAA is a
 better bank for opening a CD if you are not certain you will be 
 leaving it in for the full term (or if you don't trust TCF not 
 to change the rules in mid-stream).  In my opinion, grex is an 
 ideal candidate for opening the sort of account (CD) that pays 
 more because it does not have ATM, phone transfer or unlimited 
 free withdrawal, none of which grex needs if it keeps a 
 reasonable amount in a checking account.
 
 Unfortunately it takes some time to open an account at a new 
 bank (an hour or two including collecting the paperwork?), but I  
 don't think TCF offers any type of interest-paying account that 
 is worth it to grex to invest in.  Mark already tried to make 
 the best of their rules with a series of 6-mo accounts that 
 rolled over at different dates, but that would have been a lot 
 of work to both set up and keep track of.  Opening one account 
 at another bank is probably less time-consuming overall.  Once 
 the account is open, you only have to deal with monthly 
 statements (for savings) or an annual statement (CD).
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(70) #52  Russ Cage (russ)
Wed, Dec 19, 2001 (23:58).   5 lines.
 Dammit, Sindi, will you STOP POLLUTING EVERY ITEM EVERYWHERE
 WITH YOUR MONOMANIACAL TIRADE ALREADY?!
 
 Maybe it's time to add you to my twit list.  And work up a
 new and improved twit filter... yeah.  Could be useful.
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(70) #53  JP2 * GREX * AND YOU! (jp2)
Thu, Dec 20, 2001 (00:04).   1 line.
 I wrote a wicked twit filter for M-Net.
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(70) #54  David Brodbeck (gull)
Thu, Dec 20, 2001 (09:12).   3 lines.
 I wouldn't mind if it would just stay in one item.  It's starting to 
 remind me a little of a few agoras ago when every item became a gun 
 control debate.
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(70) #55  John Ellis Perry Jr. (jep)
Thu, Dec 20, 2001 (09:31).   2 lines.
 Sindi, why use this item for the discussion, instead of starting a new 
 one -- or using an old one on the same topic?
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(70) #56  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Thu, Dec 20, 2001 (11:55).   32 lines.
 Re 55, because this item is where the subject was most recently brought up.
 Re 54 - isn't the current agora sort of full of gun control items?
 Re 52 - calling people names is hardly a mature way to run a discussion.
 Nor it is mature to form an opinion (or make a decision) and when someone
 brings up facts which don't support your opinion, refuse to discuss them and
 call someone names.
 Re 53 - Jamie would be my first candidate for a twit list, and if Russ cannot
 keep his emotions out of his responses he might be on the list (but not too
 near the top as I usually find his postings worth reading;  actually Jamie
 is sometimes amusing and does bring up interesting subjects, but the amount
 of obscenity may not be worth it).
 
 Re 55 again.  I had started other items on how/whether to invest grex's money,
 over the past three years.  The members and board repeatedly voted to do
 something, and nothing much ever happened (apart from Mark's one attempt to
 make the best of the situation at TCF).  Interest rates have kept changing
 over that period, and facts have come to light which nobody knew before
 (partly because one bank does not seem willing to give them out).
 
 Re TCF, our friend who just turned 80 told me an interesting story of how TCF
 has attempted to withhold information.  He had his wallet stolen, containing
 a credit card and what he thought was just an ATM card.  The latter turned
 out to be a VISA card which was automatically issued to him when he asked for
 an ATM card.  The thief ran up a lot of bills on it.  So the friend asked TCF
 for a plain ATM card as a replacement.  They gave him an ATM/VISA card.  He
 then asked again for a plain ATM card.  They said that was not possible.  He
 asked for scissors to cut up the VISA card.  They brought him a plain ATM
 card.  This was at a branch.  At another branch (or the main bank?) he was
 later in line behind someone who was told plain ATM cards were not possible.
 He brought his out and showed it to her.  The manager asked, reprovingly,
 where he got his plain ATM card.  The friend conjectures that the bank WANTS
 people to use credit cards.
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(70) #57  David Brodbeck (gull)
Thu, Dec 20, 2001 (12:16).   4 lines.
 Yes, most banks are doing that now.  They're pushing debit cards pretty
 heavily, I suspect because they get some kind of cut from Visa.  My bank
 'converted' my ATM card to a debit card without asking me first.  This is
 not unique to TCF.
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(70) #58  Anne Perry (mooncat)
Thu, Dec 20, 2001 (12:24).   15 lines.
 re #56- Was it a true credit card or a debit card? 
 
 I have a debit card from my credit union (which is currently paying 2% 
 on funds in my checking accout, fyi) and it has a VISA logo on it- 
 however it's not a true VISA credit card. 
 
 Basically, it just acts as a check- if I don't have any money in my 
 checking account I can't use the thing. I can see why a bank would want 
 you to use a debit card- probably makes things easier for them, can't 
 say for sure though.
 
 From all this I'm reading about banks, I have to say that I really like 
 my credit union ($1 minimum checking balance, $5 savings). I have a 
 debit card from them, but I had to request it as they don't just 
 automatically give them out.
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(70) #59  JP2 * GREX * AND YOU! (jp2)
Thu, Dec 20, 2001 (13:10).   2 lines.
 56:  If you find obscenity a problem you are too fucking closeminded and
 probably too fucking stupid to actually understand me.
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(70) #60  Glenda F. Andre' (glenda)
Thu, Dec 20, 2001 (13:40).   20 lines.
 TCF (still Great Lakes at the time) sent us the debit cards without our
 asking.  I called and complained as I had been reading about added fees and
 that they didn't have the $50 limit if lost or stolen that the plain ATM card
 had.  I was assured that it had the $50 limit and that there would never be
 any extra fees.  A few months later when I was using the card at Whole Foods
 the clerk asked me if I wanted to use it as credit or debit and pointed out
 that there was a $.25 charge to use it as a debit.  After looking closer at
 my monthly statements, sure enough there were POS (Point of Service) fees
 added that I hadn't really noticed as they don't have a lot of ATMs so we end
 up using it at other financial institutions and getting charged those fees.
 There was no notice of the fees being raised.  Not long ago when I was asked
 if I wanted to use it as a credit or debit I said something along the lines
 of credit as I didn't want to pay the debit fee and the clerk responsed with
 "yes, $.75 is a bit much to use the card".  Again I did not get notice that
 the fees were being raised.
 
 If it wasn't for the fact that otherwise our checking account in free and that
 we have been with the bank for almost 20 years, I would close the account and
 take my business elsewhere.  Unfortunately, there really isn't an elsewhere
 because they are all doing it.
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(70) #61  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Thu, Dec 20, 2001 (14:11).   35 lines.
 I have not noticed that my bank (BoAA) has been charging me any fees of any
 sort for using the debit card.  The relevant line reads:
 
 POS Purchase from checking Kroger #688 SL9 ANN ARBOR MI 09/27 $6.23
 
 They gave me a list of service charges when I opened the account.
 
 This seems to be one of the free services that you get with a no-interest
 checking account there.  They require a higher minimum than TCF ($700 instead
 of $250) but TCF seems to be making it up in other ways.  
 
 BoAA Items/services with no charges
 
 Overdrafts less than $25 no charge
 (I recall TCF charging me $27 for a small overdraft which occurred when they
 withdrew the gas bill of $10 or so from an account of mine which they said
 they had closed but never really did.)
 
 No charge for telephone transfers (between accounts, anyway)
 Returned deposited items (bounced checks?)
 Photocopies (these were 25 cents at TCF)
 Notary for customers (this was free at TCF)
 Signature guaranty for customers
 (and a few other things)
 
 Overdrafts of $25 or more - $25 charge.
 
 Mooncat, is the Credit Union open to everyone?  It sounds like a great place.
 In theory the customers are the ones to share the profits.  How does it really
 work?  We were in one town of 260 people that decided to open its own credit
 union as no bank wanted to bother with them, and another town that opened its
 own cooperative supermarket when the IGA closed.  My health insurance company
 is a mutual insurance company.  Is there some difference between a mutual
 company and a cooperative and whatever a credit union is, regarding how
 profits are shared?
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(70) #62  Anne Perry (mooncat)
Thu, Dec 20, 2001 (15:43).   17 lines.
 re #61- Actually... I'm not sure if this credit union is open to 
 everyone. It's based in Midland, MI (official name Dow Chemical 
 Employee Credit Union) and I know I have my account because my parents 
 opened it- my dad worked for Dow. I'm going to guess that you have to 
 be affiliated with Dow in some way or other in order to get an account- 
 but not 100% sure. 
 
 It's a great bank to work with- but until recently it was a bit of a 
 pain to try to deal with since I live in Ann Arbor and there are no 
 branches here. So if I wanted to make a deposit I would either mail it 
 to them or have to drive to the closest location (Flint I think, but I 
 always went to Saginaw, Flint is scary), and it was a long distance 
 call to call them. Now however, they're online in a big way and they've 
 made a deal with Alliance 1 so I can make deposits at a few ATMs in Ann 
 Arbor (like U of M Credit Union) and withdrawals without the fee.
 
 I can try to find out more information on it if you'd like.
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(70) #63  David Brodbeck (gull)
Thu, Dec 20, 2001 (17:20).   8 lines.
 Debit cards are a bad deal, really.  They have few of the consumer 
 protection benefits of a real credit card.  (If your real credit card 
 is stolen and misused, your liability is $0, not $50, for example.)
 
 I'd disable the debit card feature of my ATM card if I could.  As an 
 ATM card, if I lose it someone can only use it if they also know my 
 PIN.  As a debit card, they don't need to know anything, they just have 
 to posess the card.  This lowers the security by a notch.
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(70) #64  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Thu, Dec 20, 2001 (20:45).   10 lines.
 I think my friend said he was not charge for any of the things run up on one
 of his cards, because the thief did a bad job of forging his signature (put
 a few loops where they did not belong in a capital letter).  His story had
 become so complicated by then that I don't know which card this was, or whther
 his bank card was debit or credit.  It also involved a few Peruvian rugs which
 his wife wanted to talk about at the same time.  
 
 When you use a debit or credit card, is the recipient supposed to watch you
 sign while comparing with the signature on the card?  I don't notice that
 anyone ever does this.
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(70) #65  Dave Lovelace (davel)
Fri, Dec 21, 2001 (10:27).   4 lines.
 Especially not at the places where you swipe your own card, and the clerk
 never sees or touches the card.  Even more so at the "U-scan" stations in
 grocery stores, where there is no clerk present and you sign a touch-screen,
 not a piece of paper.
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(70) #66  Glenda F. Andre' (glenda)
Fri, Dec 21, 2001 (11:52).   1 line.
 My free checking account at TCF has no minimum balance.
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(70) #67  David Brodbeck (gull)
Fri, Dec 21, 2001 (12:17).   6 lines.
 A fair number of places will compare your signature to the one on the card,
 but this is pretty recent.  One clerk told me that if they didn't do it and
 the charge was refused, they had no recourse.  Your name does *not* have to
 match the name on the card, though, just the signature on the back.  (At
 work I regularly make purchases with a company credit card that's in my
 boss's name, but has my signature on the back.)
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(70) #68  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Fri, Dec 21, 2001 (13:46).   2 lines.
 re 66 - it used to be $250 minimum.  Guess they changed that.  If you went
 below $250 there was a monthly fee.
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(70) #69  Mark A. Conger (aruba)
Fri, Dec 21, 2001 (18:50).   2 lines.
 I was hoping to get a savings account opened today, but I just had too much
 to do.  I will do it in early January.
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(70) #70  Sindi Keesan (keesan)
Sat, Dec 22, 2001 (13:24).   18 lines.
 
 I don't know where you plan to open the savings account, but in case it
 is BoAA I checked on the numbers.  You don't get three free in-person
 withdrawals per month, it is actually four.  And the minimum for checking
 acconts is not (though it may once have been) $700, it is $600 (with $9 fee
 if you go below that) or $800 ($12 fee) if you want cancelled checks back.
 Photocopies and debit card use are still free.  CD rules changed fairly
 recently - it used to be that the penalty was 6 mo interest if the account
 still had 12 mo or longer to run but I have in writing (signed) that it is
 now 3 mo even if you have 5 years to go.  And I have in writing that you can
 make partial withdrawals.  I also have in writing that you have to put in a
 written request to take money out early and in theory they don't have to honor
 that request but they have never refused yet.  (They might if the federal
 deposit bank has a crisis.)  Tootsie pops continue to be free, and water.
 
 Yes, I would be interested to hear about the Dow credit union but since they
 don't seem to be open to the general public don't go out of your way for info,
 mooncat.  Is the local credit union open to just anyone?
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(70) #71  Stray User (hash)
Sun, Dec 23, 2001 (02:48).   4 lines.
 keesan, you shore know a lot about banking.
 why aren't you the treasurer again?
 
 I think grex's money should all be put into offshore investments.
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(70) #72  E R Bassey (other)
Mon, Dec 24, 2001 (11:41).   2 lines.
 Did anyone happen to note the date of the next meeting?  It's not 
 indicated in the minutes above.
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(70) #73  John H. Remmers (remmers)
Mon, Dec 24, 2001 (13:28).   5 lines.
 The next meeting isn't scheduled yet.  Since the election was
 still in progress, the composition of the new board -- and in
 particular their schedules -- was unknown.  So it was decided
 that the new board would use email or a coop item to figure out
 when to have the January meeting.